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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby ballhair » Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:06 am

I was always a Big Ben fan until a couple of years ago. Putting his off the field embarrassments aside, I've felt that for the last three seasons Ben has been an average NFL QB at best. I wouldn't sign him to any long term or big contract. Its obvious (at least to me), that he can't carry a team himself. Is he going to put up 30 or 40 points today to hang with the Lions? I doubt it. The one instance of Ben being a moron that I will never forget is that game in Cleveland a few years ago when he got hurt. He scrambled out of the pocket to his right, he was about 10-15 yards behind the line of scrimmage, running towards the sidelines with a big Clowns tackle in close pursuit. He extended the play. (like everyone says he is so good at). No receivers must of been open. Instead of throwing the ball away or just running out of bounds, it looked like he actually stopped just before the sideline maker and then let this goon body slam him. That was the end of our season. I thought to my self, you stupid Mother F'er. Are you that dense? He hardly scrambles any more and when he does he looks slow and awkward. He doesn't read defenses worth a shit either. Overall I'm just really disappointed in how Ben has turned out. Just my opinion.

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby isfry » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:24 pm

Yeah, Ben sure wasn't any help today...

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby SoCal Stiller » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:15 am

isfry wrote:Yeah, Ben sure wasn't any help today...


:lol: :suplusone:

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby PGHeaven » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:53 pm

I think Danny boy the bon bon eater and castle dweller is the one who planted the rumour about Ben so that his asshole political behavior gets moved off the front page. Remember this pukes - it is Dan Hussein Rooney who made everything political - NOT PG heaven - but I am more than glad to vent my spleen on this.

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby isfry » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:29 am

PGHeaven wrote:I think Danny boy the bon bon eater and castle dweller is the one who planted the rumour about Ben so that his asshole political behavior gets moved off the front page.


I hate to break it to ya, PGH, but you're the only one who has the Rooney's politics on his front page...

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby isfry » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:40 am

When thinking about a long term deal, I was curious how much more of a beating Ben has taken than some of his contemporaries. Here's how it stacks up:

Rodgers - 9th season – 229 sacks
Brady - 14th season – 331 sacks
Brees - 13th season – 256 sacks
P. Manning - 16th season – 265 sacks
E. Manning - 10th season – 239 sacks
Rivers - 10th season – 239 sacks
Ben - 10th season – 380 sacks

That's a lot of sacks. Add a motorcycle wreck to the mix and I think you've got to be concerned for Ben's longevity. I love the guy, but I think a three (max 4) year deal might be wiser. Just my opinion.

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby SteelThatDon'tRust » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:32 pm

Ben is a fucking stud, period. Some of you are old timers and lived through the dark ages between Bradshaw and Ben. Why any one thinks Ben should not be signed through age 36 mystifies me. Once he's gone? Who knows what kind of darkness may settle over the land. He can't play forever. But he'll be 32 next season. 4 year deal is a must. Draft the replacement if we see him and let him gestate behind #7. Compare him to other QBs around the league and compare performances.

Also, let's throw in AB. Have we seen Brown's ceiling yet? NO. He's still going to improve.
Is AB going to get a C3? I believe the answer is yes.
Ben's latest number 1 is not going to be taken from him like so many others.
The duo is only going to get better.

I'm ready for Thursday. This season ain't dead yet, and BR7 is in his prime.

:twisted:

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby isfry » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:29 pm

Please don't misunderstand my hesitance to commit to a six year deal, Steel. I was just pointing out that Ben's 32 is a little older than other QB's 32, as will his 38 be, based on the shit-ton of sacks and the motorcycle incident. I agree, and have said so consistently, that Ben is a stud. He is, and will be until he retires (a Steeler) the best option we have at QB and I, for one, am glad to have him. I was a fan during the late 70's and suffered through the 80's and early 90's. I am not blind to the blessing of a true franchise QB, three SB appearances and two trophies. It's an accomplishment some teams NEVER MAKE. I was merely pointing out that it might make sense to consider that Ben at 36 may be more like 40+ in body damage, when pulling out one's checkbook.

I am hungry for Turkey with a side of Ratbird on Thursday!!!

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby SoCal Stiller » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:39 pm

Despite the stupid rumors last week, I think Ben will stay here and not demand a ridiculous amount of money. My neighbor is Keisel's best bud from BYU and gave me some great insight into the team, and Ben in particular last night. I was talking over the fence with him and he says Ben definately wants to retire a Steeler and is not the type to demand a shit ton of cash.

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby Pommah » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:47 am

SoCal that is good to hear. Despite Ben's "Dickhead eruptions" over the years I think underneath he's a good guy. He played in a small town for high school and a MAC college, never was prepped for what the big time is like. Like fry I worry about the damage to his body. That's what got to Bradshaw he was still a great QB in the end but kept getting hurt. All in all I'd rather put up with what will be an inevitable decline (at some point) than see him in a different uniform. I remember seeing Franco Harris and Mike Webster in other uniforms. It takes something out of you

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby SoCal Stiller » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:23 am

Pommah wrote:SoCal that is good to hear. Despite Ben's "Dickhead eruptions" over the years I think underneath he's a good guy. He played in a small town for high school and a MAC college, never was prepped for what the big time is like. Like fry I worry about the damage to his body. That's what got to Bradshaw he was still a great QB in the end but kept getting hurt. All in all I'd rather put up with what will be an inevitable decline (at some point) than see him in a different uniform. I remember seeing Franco Harris and Mike Webster in other uniforms. It takes something out of you


Yeah, I agree about seeing our guys in different unis. It sucks seeing JH in stripes. I watched a few Bengals games and it seems he doesn't see the field very much anymore. Sad :(

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby SoCal Stiller » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:32 am

This is off topic, but I found it interesting. I recently found out that Keisel was going to be cut after he was injured in his rookie year. However, after Cowher took a hunting trip with him to his parent's house in Wyoming, he was left on the roster on IR. I always root for the late round picks to have success. The guy has really made a name for himself for being a 7th rounder. Hell, his face is on the steelers.com website!
:cheers:

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby SteelThatDon'tRust » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:38 am

isfry wrote:Please don't misunderstand my hesitance to commit to a six year deal, Steel. I was just pointing out that Ben's 32 is a little older than other QB's 32, as will his 38 be, based on the shit-ton of sacks and the motorcycle incident. I agree, and have said so consistently, that Ben is a stud. He is, and will be until he retires (a Steeler) the best option we have at QB and I, for one, am glad to have him. I was a fan during the late 70's and suffered through the 80's and early 90's. I am not blind to the blessing of a true franchise QB, three SB appearances and two trophies. It's an accomplishment some teams NEVER MAKE. I was merely pointing out that it might make sense to consider that Ben at 36 may be more like 40+ in body damage, when pulling out one's checkbook.

I am hungry for Turkey with a side of Ratbird on Thursday!!!


Oh no, I think your assessment is sober. Much more sober than people who think BR7 has been average or disappointing. Give him a 4 to 5 year deal this offseason. Hard to believe he'll be as effective at 38 as now. No QB is. But I have no hesitation locking him up through age 36. And this is exactly what you advocated.

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby isfry » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:19 pm

Perhaps someone can clarify the contract negotiation possibilities for me. My understanding was that Ben has two years left on his current contract, but that for cap reasons they would want to resign him in the coming offseason, to defer some of the cap liability until later. Couple questions:

1.) Is that right or did I imagine that?
2.) If that's correct, when I was talking about four more years I thought that would start ticking after the current contract expires, after the 2015 season. Or, am I wrong? If they renegotiate and resign him, does it cancel the old contract and start a new one in its place next year? (assuming this even happens this offseason)

Basically, my thinking was an additional four year contract would sign Ben through the 2019 season, and through his 37th birthday (March 2, 2019). (Four years being tacked on after the 2015 season and his current contract ends) Or, is it that a four year deal replaces his current contract and begins after this year and basically covers through the 2017 season? If it's the latter, I say sign him for six.

Is my math off? Is my understanding of how NFL contract negotiations off? Anyone have the answers?

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby Pommah » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:41 pm

fry, if they renegotiate his contract, the cap numbers change along with it. This is why teams frequently ask the big buck players to restructure, to help with cap terms. Usually, the player gets a longer contract term out of the process - though they may never be able to collect on it.

There are formulas for how much signing bonuses, performance bonuses, etc. get spread over the contract term for the purpose of cap calculations. Usually the cap number is the salary plus the signing bonus divided by the term of the contract. I have a friend who follows this much more closely than I do, and the interesting thing he says to me is, as far as the player is concerned, all that matters is the guaranteed money, because quite often that's all they'll ever get. The NFL does not allow guaranteed contracts; only the signing bonus can be guaranteed. The team will trade or cut a player before they give him all that back-end loaded, increasing salary stuff. So when the Steelers say they've signed James Harrison to a 6-year, 51.75 million dollar contract in 2009, they never paid anything close to that. Back end loaded, he was due $6M or so for 2013, but it also had a $10M cap charge because of how it was structured in the beginning. James did alright for himself, but only got in 4 of his 6 years, and obviously his salary was higher in the latter years than in the beginning. The Steelers could just say, James, we don't want to pay you anymore, (and even though we signed a contract) so you will have to take less or not play for us.

Baseball, basketball, almost all the money is guaranteed. Not so the NFL. The owners, as usual, have banded together well, and have the best terms with its players union in pro sports.

If Ben's cap number is too high - most likely due to increasing salary - a typical renovation will extend his term, lower the salary number for the current and near years, and offer him another signing bonus. He will still get any signing bonus still due from his prior contract - that's guaranteed - and the signing bonus from the new contract, also guaranteed - and the new salary. It's possible for the cap hit to go down, but for Ben to get more money - in total - due to the larger "guaranteed" portion.

If Ben renegotiates in the offseason - which is highly likely - his new salary number will be down, but will get something like a 6-year term, even though both parties understand he may not play it out. The long term will allow the signing bonus to be amortized over a long period of time for a lower cap hit.

Point is, don't pay attention to the total contract, the term, etc. - only to the signing bonus. That's the variable in the process that allows the team to manipulate cap numbers and the means by which the player actually gets paid, for certain.

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Re: Ben Trade Rumors

Postby isfry » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:30 pm

Thanks, Pommah. That makes sense. I guess all that matters (to me) is that they resign him in the offseason to a term that guarantees he gets his money and retires a Steeler. I couldn't stomach seeing Ben play for the Browns...

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