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The myth about the Todd Haley dink and dunk offense

Postby trenches » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:57 pm

The myth about the Todd Haley dink and dunk offense has been posted by In the Trenches at Stillers.com.

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Re: The myth about the Todd Haley dink and dunk offense

Postby isfry » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:41 pm

Good numbers, Trenches, and great analysis. I am actually not too concerned with the lack of stretch plays thus far. Ben has remained upright, and our turnovers are at an all time low for the Roethlisberger era. I agree that Wally has to become a threat on something other than a streak for anyone to bite on anything else. His dropping passes like he's got his eyes closed hasn't helped, either. I also agree with the point somebody made elsewhere about getting a running game going in order to increase the shots downfield. Hopefully that can happen. The part I find funny is I actually heard somebody on the TV commentating crew refer to Ben as "Dunklessberger" at the beginning of the WAS game, and then the crew went on to talk about the Steelers like dink n dunk was some sort of pussified version of football. I don't seem to remember the same machismo in their analysis of Tom Terrific and the Cheatriots while they have been doing it for the last three fucking years. Bellichick is a genius and Tom Bundchen is God's gift to football was all I heard. Fuck the mainstream media. Giod Bless Stillers.com.

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Re: The myth about the Todd Haley dink and dunk offense

Postby Magdeep » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:06 pm

Good analysis. However, all stats are meaningless, what gets you in the playoffs are wins. Nothing more, nothing less. As you recall, last year the Giants gave up more points than they scored and had a mediocre record but they got in the playoffs and won a Super Bowl crown. Remember a couple of years ago Green Bay stumbled in to the playoff and beat our beloved Steelers in the SB. Who cares if the QB or RB is putting up Hall of Fame numbers and the team is losing? Who cares if the defense is statistically the best in the league if they can't prevent a game winning drive and the team loses?

WINS-the only thing that matters. Not how you get them.

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Re: The myth about the Todd Haley dink and dunk offense

Postby isfry » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:04 pm

Magdeep wrote:Good analysis. However, all stats are meaningless, what gets you in the playoffs are wins. Nothing more, nothing less. As you recall, last year the Giants gave up more points than they scored and had a mediocre record but they got in the playoffs and won a Super Bowl crown. Remember a couple of years ago Green Bay stumbled in to the playoff and beat our beloved Steelers in the SB. Who cares if the QB or RB is putting up Hall of Fame numbers and the team is losing? Who cares if the defense is statistically the best in the league if they can't prevent a game winning drive and the team loses?

WINS-the only thing that matters. Not how you get them.


As brilliant and insightful as that may be, at times it can be helpful to determine how to get those wins, which I believe is as important as the wins themselves. If you don't have a gameplan, you're unlikely to get the WINS.

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Re: The myth about the Todd Haley dink and dunk offense

Postby trenches » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:25 pm

Magdeep wrote:Good analysis. However, all stats are meaningless, what gets you in the playoffs are wins. Nothing more, nothing less. As you recall, last year the Giants gave up more points than they scored and had a mediocre record but they got in the playoffs and won a Super Bowl crown. Remember a couple of years ago Green Bay stumbled in to the playoff and beat our beloved Steelers in the SB. Who cares if the QB or RB is putting up Hall of Fame numbers and the team is losing? Who cares if the defense is statistically the best in the league if they can't prevent a game winning drive and the team loses?

WINS-the only thing that matters. Not how you get them.


I can't argue must of what you say in the context of wins and losses. In that context, with the ultimate goal being to win the Super Bowl, then who cares about how you get there -- it's the trophy that matters. But, being a sports fan also means not just end goals but the journey along the way. Healthy debates are part of what make sports fun and in any sports debate, stats are naturally going to be used since they provide a concrete basis for comparisons. In the context of my article, discussing the nature of the Steelers offense, stats are perfectly relevant since they allow for cross team comparisons.

Stats can always be twisted and skewed but they also allow for interesting and colorful sports discussions.

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Re: The myth about the Todd Haley dink and dunk offense

Postby Pommah » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:27 pm

Trenches, I looked at the current stats on NFL.com and subtracted out your numbers to get passing percentage on the true dinks, the under 10 yard pass. That is where the majority of passes are thrown now by far and all the top QB's complete 75% of them. The top QB's also complete between 55 and 60% of their 10-20 yarders too. With numbers like that the only reason to throw 20+ yards is when its 3rd and over 20 in which case the defense knows it's coming, or as an element of surprise. The number of 20+ yard attempts is statistically insignificant compared to the 20 and under attempts and nothing can be learned about the quality of the QB by looking at them. (all that said, I agree with you that everybody is a dinker and dunker now).

The rules have changed because like hockey where women can't see the puck, women can't appreciate interior line play. The ballet-like precision of a pulling guard sweep or a cross-buck for 4 yards is lost on them. And how do you rack up fantasy points for your pulling guard or pancaking tackle?

But I tell you what the team that figures out how to run the ball on these defenses will win a Super Bowl. Just like Joe Gibbs figured out that a fat 350 pound tackle that a DE couldn't get around on a pass rush was more valuable than a great run blocker. Only coach to win multiple SB's (3) without a hall of fame quarterback. Next guy who copied Gibbs was Jimmy Johnson whose teams won 3 SB's too (although Switzer was HC on the last one). And now everybody plays that way.

And maybe that guy is our own Todd Haley because somehow Dwyer has been virtually untouched multiple times all the way through the line of scrimmage with quite a head of steam. Let's see how we do against the Giants who have a much higher caliber D than Cincy or Washington. I know it's what I will be watching for.

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Re: The myth about the Todd Haley dink and dunk offense

Postby SoCal Stiller » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:19 pm

This is an excellent discussion.... :sudancin:

Another longstanding trend around the league is to insert a small and fast RB into the offense during no-huddle or long yardage situations. When I saw Dwyer's pass catching ability, I was thinking that maybe it is more to the Steelers' advantage to spread them out and leave the big guy back there against a possible nickel or dime defensive alignment. Sure you may not hit the home run ball, but it seems more likely that you will truck smaller defenders on draw plays, screens, and delays and pick up 5 to 8 yards and wear down defenses. It's not like we have an Adrian Peterson in the backfield. Obviously, this is not a good alignment during desperation time when trailing, but does anyone think it has merit?

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Re: The myth about the Todd Haley dink and dunk offense

Postby trenches » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:20 pm

Solid post, Pommah!
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